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Doline

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PostSubject: Bitch's seasons   Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:44 am

Hi there

Here's a new question that I would like to get the input on of other breeders.
In your experience, once you've established a bitch season cycle, does that particular bitch's cycle always stays the same? E.g every six months, bleed for 5 days, 'ovolate or /stand' on day 10 -14 and refuse from day 15 etc?

Most of my bitches fitted above cenario, but my smooth bitch 'stands' on day 2 of her cycle (atleast she did the previous time), and refuse from day 4, and had a 7 pup litter.
Ever since, it's like she's never come into season again, but I'm not sure if I just 'miss' it, or if she really doesn't come in again. The time she had the litter her vulva swelled HUGELY and you couldn't miss it. But now I'm wondering that it might not be the same every time? Maybe she doesn't swell so much anymore?

Also, I resontly imported a bitch from Europe, and she was due (according to her breeder) to come into season Sep/ Oct, and true to word, she came in end Oct. However, she was mated the previous time (more then 18 months ago) on day 17- which is rather late if taken from the 'norm'. Also had a 9 pup litter.
This time I'm not even sure if she was mated, as she walks freely on my yard with my male. It's like he never went 'bonkers' for her, and unless he had 'innings' at night, I'm not sure she was mated at all.
On day 17 it's almost as if the interest faded away, and I had a smear done yesterday, and the vet confirmed that she's 'out'. Even though when she was mated it was on day 17 for four days after. This time she's out, 2 days after? If I presume she still ovulated day 17, but maybe this time she did around day 14?

Is this a once off occurence (maybe due to her new environment), or does some bitches just not repeat the same pattern every time?
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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:37 am

weve have found that they all stand on different days ,

dory has taken from a day 8 and a day 16

destiny took day 9 and day 14

daisy took day 10, day 13 and day 15

these were the days they stood and tied, however we all know a tie doesnt mean pups!


my boys if left with a bitch in season, would go bonkers and diesel has hurt himself trying to get to a bitch in season....... if i left a dog with a bitch in season id expect him to be pestering her the whole time and i suppose a few matings maybe and a fight. we let dory and dexter play when she was in season ( supervised with 2 adults) as she doesnt get on with any other girls and dexter jumped on her back for the whole time we tried to let them play ( he was mating her that season anyway so it wasnt an issue as such, but eventually she would have snapped at him)

i wonder if your dog perhaps is the issue?

im sure my boys would if left with a bitch in season get her at all costs! Embarassed
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Doline

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PostSubject: Bitch's season   Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:03 pm

This is interesting to me. I've done estrus monitoring on some of my bitches, purely because I've previously didn't have my own stud, and always looked for the best stud available. However, Since I'm on the farm now, and very far from a vet, I've decided to now get my own 'resident' stud dog (imported as well). But ofcourse I cannot do estrus monitoring anymore, and have to rely on my estimate of the bitches previous seasons etc. The monitoring that was done, indicated that the bitches ovulated almost always on the same time (around a 3 day variation)

I've read that if a stud 'lives' with a bitch the whole time that sometimes the heat won't be as 'strong' as if the stud were suddently introduced to a bitch in season, because he's much used to her, and also because the 'smell' grows over time, and doesn't hit him between the eyes suddenly.
That is why they advise that the bitch must rather be seperated and only 'introduced' to the male when she is more or less readdy, and after the first mating to seperate them again as to prefent him from over excerting himself, and thus do matings every other day.

But my kennels were not finished in time, so I couldn't do this.

I am curious to see what will happen as my property is quite big, and I obviously cannot see the dogs the WHOLE time, and also not at night, so I'm clueless if maybe he did the 'job' during the evening and rested during the day (as remember it's extremely hot with day temperates, of around 38 degrees).

But only time will tell, though I'm not extremely positive at the moment.
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Mawreddog

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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:10 pm

I have found boys that live with the bitches are generally more reserved as they know the bitches will batter them senseless if they pester them too much/too soon/too early!!

My bitches ovulations have always varied from season to season so I would never go by the previous season. Generally I have had bitches mated from days 8-13 but I always Idexx test (not practical for you Doline) so I know pretty much where I'm at.

There is also the colour of the blood as an indication, it usually changes from red to salmony pink/straw coloured at the time for mating.

What would probably do you best Doline is get yourself a microscope & dog testing kit. You swab the bitch for mucus, put it on the slide & have a look at it, there are changes in the cells that show up when ovulation is'has occurred.
Given you live in the back of beyond it s probably the easiest most accurate thing for you as you could swab every day for a month of you wanted to!

There is a company here in the UK that sells suitably powerful microscopes & you can also buy a kit for this exact purpose, link is below

http://www.ukge.co.uk/UK/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=631

and here is a link for just a test kit if you can get a decent microscope there

http://www.scuddlebutt3.co.uk/BitchFertilityTestKit.htm
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gina

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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:59 am

Hi Heather,

I find this microscope testing very interesting, is there a site with diagrams that show the cell changes over the complete cycle so i can get a better understanding of what changes to look for. If done propery this could be a much more effective and cost efficient way to test.

Thank Gina x
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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:44 pm

I have used the microscope & Vaginal Cytology via my vet for years .... I have also used Idexx ... I have to say that i find the cytology better. I used the self evaluation on 2 bitches earlier this year & was able to determine the correct time to mate, pleased to say both took. I have a microscope myself now & have used it & will continue to do so Very Happy

Have a look at this website for the images & also 'Case studies'

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/reprod/vc/cycle.html
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gina

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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:57 pm

Very interesting thanks Kathy.

So would you (anyone) be happy to use this method alone or would you continue to idexx/other premate test as well?
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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:21 pm

also wasnt there something called matel.... im sure tom told me about it, though i used premate at the time.


we go with when diesel goes mental...... lol
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Doline

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PostSubject: Bitch's season   Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:04 pm

Wow, thank you Kathy

I'm in the city currently, so I'll look for a microscope right away. This is the way the vet does in anyhow, and how difficult can it be to check out/compare the cells?
In my case it would be best to be as self sufficient as can be.

My cousin lives in the UK, so I'll ask him to get the test kit for met to sent to me or bring with when he comes to visit.

And thank you for the info with regards with the male behaviour as well. It gives me a little bit of hope. Also, the male is quite young, where's the bitch is 4 years old, so I suppose he knows his place... Let's hope so.

I do believe the heat also plays a role, as it wont' make sence to put so much 'effort' in through the heat of day, while you can do it at 'leasure' in the cooler nights (and mostly it rains at night if the day was very hot).

I've read about 'test' kits, that you swab, and it does color changes? (Almost like hope pregnancy tests, and it will change color when ovulation occur). Obviously it's not available locally, but I'm sure I can get it from europe or the US. My vet is of the opinion it''s not very trustworthy though? Any take on that???


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Doline

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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:24 pm

Kathy

What 'size' microscope would be sufficient?
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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:46 pm

OMG I just saw this .. Sorry doline


You need at least a 200x microscope, i have one that goes up to 1200x & I can evaluate dog semen with this strength too.

There are many different test kits! basically a swab from the female smeared onto a slide, then allowed to air dry completely, then stain with the Methylene blue & view under the scope. With the test kits, you get full instructions.
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Doline

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PostSubject: Re: Bitch's seasons   Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:16 am

I got myself a 2000x one, and could actually also see sperm -which is FANTASTIc, and it's got a camera that connect to your pc, so you have the option of looking through the scope OR directly on the computer -thus you can safe the samples and even e-mail.
I got the kit as you suggested online (thank you so much), and used it 3x alreaddy. The websites you've indicated showing the cell developments etc is also very good.
My imported bitch was a miss (sad sad), but after that a visiting bitch came, but we just cought the end of her cycle, so that was a miss as well. And then about 2 weeks after that, I thought to check my smooth bitch -basically to see what 'aneastrus' cells look like, as I've expected her to go into season end Jan/ beginning Feb. ( I've missted this particular bitch for the passed 3x seasons, as she does 'silent' seasons (she does not have the red discharge nor does she swell significantly, and the fact that my male doesn't seem phased by bitches in heat, doesn't help eather).
And would you believe? I cought her in proestruss. Could scarecely believe my luck.
Meanwhile a new guy started a vet practice in our town, and by coincidence reside at the farm next-door to us. So I've mailed him the smears. He confirmed it's proesterus, and about a day after she went into eastrus. Since my mail is still unresponsive we did AI.

And then this vet decided he'll teach me to do AI, and in future I can do it myself. So I was very lucky. It's actually quite simple, and I got it done all by myself. The firts 2x I probably didn't get as much/good sample as he did, and I spilled some of the sample when insemenating, but the last couple was 100%. I did IA basically for all the days she showed eastrus (6 days altoghether). -so now we wait!!!

I'm beginning to suspect my male might have a low testosterone level, thus the low Labido. I've read that this will in no way affect the sperm quality and qantity (this vet also taught me how to check a sperm sample, and my male has a very GOOD count and quality.)

Not sure if this will get better the more he mature, or if there is testosterone supplements that can be given?.

On the other hand, I'm (sort of) tempted to leave things as is, as it's much easier handling a male that's not pumped full of testosterone, and loose his marbles when a bitch is in heat, and the constant howling and nagging, and ofcourse escaping. It's much simpler to just take sperm and insemenate when the bitch is readdy. This way I don't need to keep seperate cages, and 'manage' bitches' in season to keep them apart etc.
Also, by doing AI mostly, won't I 'protect' my stud against cross infections by other bitches as well?

Another question (on the sideline) is, do you count the estimate date of birth from the day she goes into Diestrus, or the actual (estimated) date of ovulation (about 2-3 days before diestrus)?

Two more questions on the subjects though: Do you give antibiotics after insemenating? As some breeders believe it's beneficial, but I don't know weather there is real merit in that, concidering a bitch is in top health/immunity at the time of her cycle, and thus any infections should be maintained by her own immunity system.?

Also: to really pinpoint the day of ovulation itself, the vaginal smears cannot really tell (aparently there can be up to 5 days difference from when the 'cells' indicate ovulation, till the acual ovulation event), and only monitoring progesterone levels can indicate that accuaratly. As far as I could tell there are 2 products on the market that can be done at home (Target and Ovucheck Premate). Did you (or anybody else) use this ever, and is it as realiable as the 'advertisements' indicate.
It's not available locally, and I'll have to import as well, but oviously it will be pricey. But I don't want to 'miss' my imported bitch again, so need to take all possible precautions.

Any suggestions?
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