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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Wobbly/popping hock   Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:41 pm

Has anyone seen a dog with a wobbly/popping hock like this? The pup is 8 months old and is asymptomatic. He runs and plays like any other pup. The popping is not as noticeable when he is gaited or running freely, it is most obvious when he is walking slowly.

Edited to add: Norm's father and half-sister (same sire) both have a similar issue, though Norm's is more pronounced. His half-sister has both legs affected. All three of them appear unaware and it doesn't restrict their movement.



Last edited by Shel Munro on Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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The Shire

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:41 am

Hi Shel,

I think there are maybe 2 possible issues here:

  • The popping of the joint is not necessarily a problem at all but it may not be the hock it could be coming further up from the knee/stifle, which leads me onto my next point
This exact same sort of double movement at the hock I am very familiar with from my eldest Bernard Burt, but in his case it was actually a sign of cruciate problem at the knee, for which he has now had a large amount of surgery on both knees.

I would advise you to take him to the vet and get him checked out, but before you do that please have a look at Max's website at www.tiggerpoz.com where these problems are explained in great detail along with the surgical and non-surgical options for treatment.

From personal experience, if it is a cruciate issue then I would strongly suggest conservative management as opposed to surgery, especially in such a young dog.

Fingers crossed for you!

Ali
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:58 am

Hi Ali,

Thank you for your reply.
The Shire wrote:
The popping of the joint is not necessarily a problem at all but it may not be the hock it could be coming further up from the knee/stifle.
My vet assures me that the problem has nothing to do with his knees or hips and that it is most definitely his hock which has excessive lateral laxity. Needless to say I was relieved to find Norm's wobbly hock has nothing to do with his ligaments.

The Shire wrote:
This exact same sort of double movement at the hock I am very familiar with from my eldest Bernard Burt, but in his case it was actually a sign of cruciate problem at the knee, for which he has now had a large amount of surgery on both knees.
I am so sorry Burt has had to endure multiple surgeries... give Burt a big hug for me.

The Shire wrote:
I would advise you to take him to the vet and get him checked out,
Norm has seen the vet three times regarding this issue. X-rays showed no abnormalities in the hock, but incidentally shed some light on other issues:

1) the femur in his right leg twists to the outside
2) the femur in the left leg also twists to the outside, but to a lesser degree than the right
3) the metatarsals in both feet twist to the outside which accounts for his toeing out
4) the right hip has mild hip dysplasia
5) the left hip has severe hip dysplasia

Our vet does not believe any of these abnormalities is responsible for the wobbly hock.

The Shire wrote:
From personal experience, if it is a cruciate issue then I would strongly suggest conservative management as opposed to surgery, especially in such a young dog.
I have had to deal with ligament injuries before - cruciate on one of my Newfs, and medial collateral on myself. In both cases I opted for non-surgical solutions. Surgery would be the very last option, and I would never consider it for a growing pup. I am very fortunate that my vet shares my views.

The Shire wrote:
Fingers crossed for you!

Thanks Ali. Our vet (who breeds horses) and Norm's breeder believe that controlled exercise with help build muscle in his rear, which in turn, will help both his hips and his wobbly hock. The good news is Norm is completely unaware of any of this. He is a happy-go-lucky boy that enjoys life to the fullest.
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:07 am

Lanebern wrote:
I've seen this in a few dogs to varying degrees .... its generally thought to be like 'double jointed' so the hock has more sway .....
Thank you Kathy, I appreciate your reply. I often wonder if it is a "double-jointed" hock, it appears it's just a loose hock that over extends when he's walking slowly. If he's gaited or running free in the yard it is hard to detect.
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:15 am

I forgot to mention in my initial post that Norm's sire and his half-sister (same sire) have the same issue. His dad is a rough coat and it's more difficult to detect. His sister has both hocks affected, but to a lesser degree than Norm. Both pups had excellent confirmation until 3½ months of age when they started to toe out, and then shortly after the hock started to wobble.
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Vicki

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:59 pm

It is actually reassuring to see a dog with this happening, Bobby our 3yo does this with one of his hind legs, it is to a lesser degree, i've only ever seen it when he's eating his meals standing there and you can see it popping in and out but only occasionally We never see it happen when's he trotting or running about playing and he's never had a day's lameness which we're thankful for.

Thanks for posting this Very Happy
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The Shire

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:48 pm

Shel,

whilst I am a lay person in many respects and certainly not a qualified vet, I have owned giant breeds for 16 years now and have seen many medical issues, particularly joint problems. As you mentioned in your later posts, Norm seems to have some issues with his joints and confirmation anyway and I would tentatively suggest that his hock symptoms are probably tied up with these to some degree - the femurs twisting outwards, the hip dysplasia and the metatarsals pointing out have effectively altered his confirmation and therefore this may well put stresses on other joints and areas of both the affected legs and other parts of the body.

I've looked around on the Internet for information about loose hocks/excessive lateral laxity and it seems that most of the research mentions that ligaments surrounding the joint being slack which then allows the bones to over extend, in a similar way to the knee joint over extending when the cruciate is damaged or torn. This does seem logical as what we're talking about is the elastic bands (ligaments) which hold the bones in place being too loose and not preventing the bones from slipping side to side or one bone slipping off the other bone.

Initially Burt was not diagnosed with any knee problems but displayed the same movement as Norm does - there was no drawer on the knee and our vet thought that there could be OCD in the ankle joint, but the orthopaedic consultant disagreed and as x-rays didn't really show up any cruciate issues the only way to confirm who was right was to open up the knee joint. We did indeed find damaged cruciate and also torn meniscus. Once the TTA was performed the slipping hock completely disappeared and altered the entire stance of hhis hind leg. Interestingly, one of Burt's knee ops has not healed correctly and when x-rayed last week shows that the spacer placed in the bone has moved upwards and so his knee is slipping again - we only spotted this because that "loose hock" movement returned on that leg.

Just as an aside, but I feel I have to mention it, you said in your later post that Norm's father has the same problem - was this spotted before or after he was used at stud to produce Norm's litter? I am assuming it was spotted after the dog had been used and that he will not be used again?

Whatever the diagnosis for Norm's hock, the downside is that he is likely to suffer early onset of arthritis in the joint so I guess a more long-term management plan needs to be considered and may well include things like dietary supplements (such as glucosamine and chondroitin), hydrotherapy (to build up muscle to support the joints) and conseravtive management through exercise.

We wish you all the luck in the world with Norm!

Regards

Ali
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:19 pm

cirtainly not something ive come across- thank god!

but i do hope norm carries on with a pain free life, please do keep us all updated with progress reports on this

cheri
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:31 pm

The Shire wrote:
whilst I am a lay person in many respects and certainly not a qualified vet, I have owned giant breeds for 16 years now and have seen many medical issues, particularly joint problems.
I'm not too far behind you Ali, I've had 7 Newfs, 1 Dane, and now Norm, since the late 90's. My first three Newfs were rescues and medical nightmares, two with crippling orthopedic issues, the other with too many issues to list. I have experience with the typical stuff (i.e. hip dysplasia, OCD, arthritis, torn cruciates, etc), but I've never come across this particular issue.

The Shire wrote:
As you mentioned in your later posts, Norm seems to have some issues with his joints and confirmation anyway and I would tentatively suggest that his hock symptoms are probably tied up with these to some degree - the femurs twisting outwards, the hip dysplasia and the metatarsals pointing out have effectively altered his confirmation and therefore this may well put stresses on other joints and areas of both the affected legs and other parts of the body.
I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I completely agree with you, of course Norm's hips, femurs, hocks, metatarsals are all inter-related, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. What my vet said was that the hip dysplasia or the twisted femurs and metatarsals are not the sole cause of the popping hock. Dogs can have poor hips and deformed femurs/ metatarsals without having popping hocks.

The Shire wrote:
I've looked around on the Internet for information about loose hocks/excessive lateral laxity and it seems that most of the research mentions that ligaments surrounding the joint being slack which then allows the bones to over extend, in a similar way to the knee joint over extending when the cruciate is damaged or torn. This does seem logical as what we're talking about is the elastic bands (ligaments) which hold the bones in place being too loose and not preventing the bones from slipping side to side or one bone slipping off the other bone.
Ali, I completey agree, which is why Norm has been back to the vet three times. I was so worried about a ligament injury, and the possibility that it could worsen if not treated. Norm was started on a controlled exercise regime (we don't have access to hydrotherapy) and believe it or not, he is improving. When he is gaited or running freely in the yard the issues seems to (almost) vanish. Although I trust my vet (he is well respected by breeders and has vast experience with giant breeds and orthopedic issues), I have not ruled out a trip to OVC (Ontario Veterinary College) to get a second opinion.

The Shire wrote:
Initially Burt was not diagnosed with any knee problems but displayed the same movement as Norm does - there was no drawer on the knee and our vet thought that there could be OCD in the ankle joint, but the orthopaedic consultant disagreed and as x-rays didn't really show up any cruciate issues the only way to confirm who was right was to open up the knee joint. We did indeed find damaged cruciate and also torn meniscus. Once the TTA was performed the slipping hock completely disappeared and altered the entire stance of hhis hind leg. Interestingly, one of Burt's knee ops has not healed correctly and when x-rayed last week shows that the spacer placed in the bone has moved upwards and so his knee is slipping again - we only spotted this because that "loose hock" movement returned on that leg.
That is so tragic. I understand why you are so passionate about this issue and I appreciate the time you've taken to educate me. I will remember Burt's story and will share it with the orthopedic specialist at the vet college during our consultation. I doubt that Norm's issues are related to a cruciate injury, especially considering his half-sister (same sire) and father have the same thing. I have to think there is a genetic component or predisposition involved. Aside, Norm's sister and father have been examined and neither has been diagnosed with injuries to the crucia. That said, I would still not rule out the possibility. The trip to see the specialist is for my own peace of mind.

The Shire wrote:
Just as an aside, but I feel I have to mention it, you said in your later post that Norm's father has the same problem - was this spotted before or after he was used at stud to produce Norm's litter? I am assuming it was spotted after the dog had been used and that he will not be used again?
I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable speaking on behalf of Norm's breeders. I can tell you that they have been incredibly supportive and very helpful. I would get another pup from them in a heartbeat.

The Shire wrote:
Whatever the diagnosis for Norm's hock, the downside is that he is likely to suffer early onset of arthritis in the joint so I guess a more long-term management plan needs to be considered and may well include things like dietary supplements (such as glucosamine and chondroitin), hydrotherapy (to build up muscle to support the joints) and conseravtive management through exercise.
Yes, I am aware of this... sadly, I've been down this road before.


Last edited by Shel Munro on Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:37 pm

Vicki wrote:
It is actually reassuring to see a dog with this happening, Bobby our 3yo does this with one of his hind legs, it is to a lesser degree, i've only ever seen it when he's eating his meals standing there and you can see it popping in and out but only occasionally We never see it happen when's he trotting or running about playing and he's never had a day's lameness which we're thankful for.

Thanks for posting this Very Happy

Hi Vicki,

Norm's hock pops in and out when he is eating as well.

I have also found that there are many Saints out there with this issue. I was hesitant to bring it up on a public forum, but the more Saint people I talk to, the more I hear about other Saints having similar wobbly hocks. I am surprised, and somewhat relieved, to hear that Norm is not alone. Norm's sire has never had a lame day either and has his dual championship (Canada and USA). I am trying to find more literature on hypermobilitiy (excessive motion at a joint that lacks stability due to laxity of ligaments, muscles, or joint capsule) - it sounds similar to what Norm, his sister, and his father have.

Hugs to Bobby Wink

Shel
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Sat May 01, 2010 7:42 am

Hi Shel, Sorry to hear Norm has this problem cos as you know I just love him. I hope he progresses and stays unaware of it. Also a BIG thankyou for sharing it on our forum I certainly have learn't alot by reading and re reading all the posts. Thanks to all posters !!!!!! it can only do good to share information and not pretend the problem doesn't exsist. Well done.!!!!!!!!!
Tony,Bud&Bhindi.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue May 18, 2010 8:47 am

any update shel???

is it getting worse or better or the same?

what is being done about it if anything???

i hope he is still pain free xxx
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue May 18, 2010 1:43 pm

I cant see the pic/video , so can't comment Sad
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue May 18, 2010 2:02 pm

rinnie69 wrote:
I cant see the pic/video , so can't comment Sad

Here is a link to the direct YouTube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYxc4nQWEKg - hopefully you'll be able to see it.
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue May 18, 2010 2:23 pm

ourfairview wrote:
any update shel???

is it getting worse or better or the same?

what is being done about it if anything???

i hope he is still pain free xxx

Hi Cheri,

Norm saw a new vet that recommended a stabilizing hock brace, as well as a chiropractic adjustment to help ease stress in his back from it being roached. He saw the chiropractor last Thursday and improvement could be seen immediately. Not only did his topline straighten, but I also noticed he held his rear legs in a more normal position (in a stack-like stance, albeit not show-worthy). He starting sitting straight (opposed to on one hip) and lying in a sphinx-like position - he has never done either before.

He was fitted for a brace the following day. I am not pleased with the brace. He immediately started roaching his back and he had difficulty rising from a sit or laying position. It was almost impossible for him to move from a standing position to a sit or laying down, instead of lowering himself, he would just bend part way and then collapse. Needless to say he's not wearing the brace.

He has a follow up appointment with the new vet tomorrow. The vet will assess the brace and give the referral to an orthopedic specialist at the provincial veterinary university/hospital (for some time in July). On Thursday he goes back to the chiropractor for another adjustment and she (chiropractor) will also assess the brace.

I think the chiropractor is our best avenue at this point, at least until we go to the university hospital. I hope to upload some new video clips that show Norm in and out of his brace.

Thanks for asking about Norm. He continues to be the sweetest soul, I am so in love with him I feel overwhelmed each time I look into those sweet brown eyes.
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue May 18, 2010 2:30 pm

glad to hear things havent come to a dead end!

would love to see some video, and of course those lovely eyes !!!

cheri
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue May 18, 2010 2:41 pm

oh right i see what you mean now, can't say i've seen that before, glad your getting some help with it. Smile
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PostSubject: New video clip   Thu May 27, 2010 11:53 pm

Norm's vet and chiropractor requested video of him with his new brace. I put together a 4 minute video clip that shows his gait before and after. Norm's brace was modified and it seems to be helping. His appointment at the university vet hospital was bumped up to June 15th. Waiting for the appointment is agony. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri May 28, 2010 5:38 am

i hope your appointment goes well

it looks to me ( im no expert) when you put the brace on the other leg gets worse???

he is such a lovely looking boy!!!

cheri
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Shel Munro

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri May 28, 2010 9:58 am

ourfairview wrote:
i hope your appointment goes well

it looks to me ( im no expert) when you put the brace on the other leg gets worse???

he is such a lovely looking boy!!!

cheri

Hi Cheri,

I'm probably not going to explain this in the clearest fashion, but I'll attempt to relay what the chiropractor told me yesterday. She said that Norm's left hock has always had some lateral movement, but it was minimal and barely noticeable unless you were looking for it. She said that when his right hock was in the brace and no longer able to hyperextend ("pop") then that movement (force) travelled up his leg through his hips and was released in his left hock.

The first brace was too high and the hinge didn't line up with his hock - so it worked more like a cast then a hinged brace. The video that shows his left hock hyperextending was taken with original brace on and it's effect was dramatic. The video that follows was taken with the new modified brace and the extreme hyperextension of his left hock vanished.

I don't know much about kinetics, but I have a feeling I'm about to learn quite a bit. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri May 28, 2010 10:08 am

explained very well- or we are both as daft as each other as i understand what you said!!!

its hard to watch his legs when you want to watch his lovely face!!!

keep us updated!
cheri
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Fri May 28, 2010 11:50 am

Norm doesn't seem to be bothered by it the handsome devil that he is lol hope he continues to improve big hugs to norm

Lorri x
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PostSubject: My cute 3 year old female has same issues with her hocks   Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:34 am


I am considering surgery while she is young. Although expensive, i do love my dogs, as they are part of our family (we have a 9 yr old son, and 2 dogs). She has shown wobbly hind legs since she's around 10 months old. Took her to the vet for x-rays, when she was about 1 year old, and the vet told me back then i should put her down. Ummm i won't ever go back to that vet office. She lives life happily, although i wish i knew if she feels pain. Her hip sockets are not in good shape at all as well. I am considering total hip replacement surgery the non-adhesive type, and perhaps have the same surgeon evaluate what can be done with her hocks. It really sucks the worse. I know surgery is expensive but life is precious and when im old and retired, i don't want to regret not helping her. When she runs, slowly that is, she keeps both legs together like a rabbit, and the wobble only shows at walking or standing stance. It takes her a while to go up and down steps which makes me really sad, unlike our other dogs who's speedy gonzales heheheh.

Dogs are very brave, and live through pain daily, and push themselves to be our best friend, my previous dog who died had a tumor that took up all the space inside him, i only knew it at the end, when it was to late. I wish in-breeding would cease...

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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:11 am

CanuckNick wrote:

I am considering surgery while she is young. Although expensive, i do love my dogs, as they are part of our family (we have a 9 yr old son, and 2 dogs). She has shown wobbly hind legs since she's around 10 months old. Took her to the vet for x-rays, when she was about 1 year old, and the vet told me back then i should put her down. Ummm i won't ever go back to that vet office. She lives life happily, although i wish i knew if she feels pain. Her hip sockets are not in good shape at all as well. I am considering total hip replacement surgery the non-adhesive type, and perhaps have the same surgeon evaluate what can be done with her hocks. It really sucks the worse. I know surgery is expensive but life is precious and when im old and retired, i don't want to regret not helping her. When she runs, slowly that is, she keeps both legs together like a rabbit, and the wobble only shows at walking or standing stance. It takes her a while to go up and down steps which makes me really sad, unlike our other dogs who's speedy gonzales heheheh.

Dogs are very brave, and live through pain daily, and push themselves to be our best friend, my previous dog who died had a tumor that took up all the space inside him, i only knew it at the end, when it was to late. I wish in-breeding would cease...


Hi Nick,

I took Norm to the Ontario Veterinary College in Guelph. Norm has severe bilateral hip dysplasia. To compensate, Norm has altered his gait (to reduce/avoid pain) and this has resulted in the laxity seen in his hocks. He has been seen by two orthopedic surgeons (one at OVC, another in private practice) and both agree that total hip replacement will not help his hocks. Neither would/could tell me if we did the hip replacement surgery whether or not Norm's hocks would be strong enough to support him during recovery and after that.

I opted to invest in physiotherapy/hydrotherapy and it has helped strengthen Norm's rear immensely. Although his hocks still wobble, he's able to lay down from a stand without crashing to the floor and he's able to jump into the van without effort. Norm attended weekly physio/hydrotherapy for a year, and then his sessions switched to bi-weekly which continue today. I have cavalettis for him at home and do stretches, massage and exercises to help keep Norm in the best possible condition. I also keep him very lean (165 lbs) and would like to take another 5-10 lbs off him.

Shel
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PostSubject: Re: Wobbly/popping hock   Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:41 pm

I second the hydrotherapy option before going the drastic surgical route. It still leaves surgery as option. Hydrotherapy does yield amazing results and its worth a shot. Good luck to you.
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