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Doline

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PostSubject: Hipscores and breeding   Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:17 pm

Would hip scores be a deciding issue in planning a breeding? If so, what would the limit be e.g would you breed only if the score is C or less, or won't it matter at all?

Also: what is the experience regarding hipscores from the next generation? Is it generally better if you have one parent clear and the other not? Or is some clear and some not, or is the litter avarage 1 count better?

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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:45 am

hip scoring would not make me rule out a dog or bitch for breeding HOWEVER being aware of a high hip score would allow me to deal with that mating in a better way and maybe use a lower scored parent with it!

our breed mean is 21 as far as im aware

in one litter ive brought out of there are bitches with a score of 31, 13, 14 and 0! the dads score was 28 yet he produced two bitches with 0-0 hip scores

cheri

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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:18 am

id like to pick up again on this, it would be wonderful if people could add the highest scored dog or bitch they have used for breeding,

im trying to work out if there is a general cut off number, having seen dogs scores from 0 to near 70 be used recently Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 10:57 am

also do you have a different cut off point for a bitch than a dog?

cheri x
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:20 pm

I have had bitches that have been bred from & are 11, 11, 10, 12, one unscored, an 8.

I will shortly be mating a bitch that has a score of 55. She & her 8 score sister (who I may add have grown up in the same home & reared identically) are the last of a line & as she has decent movement I feel I can justify it.

I should add that of my 5 litters, none of the sires were scored, mainly because until recently (past 12 months) many people just haven't done it & certainly not the dogs I have wanted to use.

Litter A Dam 11, Sire unscored, 3 dogs from this litter have been scored: a 12, an 18 & an FCI C (also one of this litter has diagnosed HD)
Litter B Dam 10, Sire unscored, no dogs from this litter have been scored.
Litter C Dam 11, Sire unscored, no dogs from this litter have been scored yet.
Litter D Dam 12, Sire unscored, 3 dogs from this litter have been scored: a 7, a 12 & a 24
Litter E, neither parent scored, 2 dogs from this litter have been scored an 8 & a 55

I wouldn't 'cut off' as it were, dependant on sex, but I now make sure that if I have anything higher scoring then the opposite dog or bitch I use will be within the breed average.

I read somewhere (can't remember where) that if we score for 5 generations, using caution with higher scoring dogs, after 5 generations we should start to see an overall improvement in that breeding. This same article said that despite this, you will also inevitably get a 'wild card' random high score in a litter regardless of its siblings or how it was reared...
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:39 pm

thanks for posting

can you clairify what the vet said about this dog "Litter A Dam 11, Sire unscored, 3 dogs from this litter have been scored: a 12, an 18 & an FCI C (also one of this litter has diagnosed HD"

it seems vets here ( norfolk/ lincoln vets that ive personally used) would call anything with a score over breed mean HD........

i totally agree its on a individual dog or bitch what you can and cant justify and of course i wouldnt cut off a dog or bitch purely on its hip score alone., and its always interesting how people assume a high score equals hideous movement!!!


heres what ive bred

dam unscored ( scored after pups with 31) dog 18 pups - only 2 scored at 40 and 53

dam 31 dog unscored ( i really wanted to use this dog and had to beg the kc as i was accredited and the dog i planned to use died the day before matings were due!) pups 15 17 and 11


dam 13 sire 28 pup 11

dam 31 sire 7 - none scored yet.

dam 31 sire 7- none scored as yet.

( i have 2 with 31)

its also interesting that my vet commented AFTER i scored my newfie that had i have left her a month later her score would have been better, when i told him i had hoped for a lower score, he asked when she had been in season, and as she had fiinished her season only a couple weeks before she was scored she would have tightened "back up" afterwards given another month!


i do agree if i were to use a higher scored dog or bitch i would bare this in mind and find a lower scored partner for them, but not at all costs, however it would be bared very much in my mind.


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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:06 pm

Our first litter was 6 years ago & from a Bitch who scored 30, Sire unscored. No puppies have been scored, but none have been reported to me to have a problem.

Our 2nd litter from an Unscored bitch - Sire Scored 21 - 1 from that litter scored 65

3rd Litter from Bitch scored 21 & Sire FCI scored 'C'. 2 scored from that litter 1 @ 11 & the others were unreadable & mum was in whelp so unable to be redone, but report from the vet were that they were better than the siblings.

4th litter - Bitch 30, Sire 21 - 2 scored from that litter one at 90 & one at 56

5th litter came from The bitch who was x-rayed but couldn't have hers read & sire unscored. Both resultant pups have not been scored, but one was x-rayed & had horrendous hips & the litter sister doesn't look that clever either.

6th litter - Bitch FCI 'B' & Sire 14 - 2 scored from that litter 1 @ 9 & 1 @ 28

As far as I'm aware, having a season or being in season has no bearing on the score ... after a litter it can, thats where the 'tightening up' comes in. I scored a bitch who just finished her season, she scored 21, that was nearly 6 years ago.

Here is a quote from the questions page on Hampoton vets website who are used widely by many for BVA Scoring:

"Q. My bitch has just come into season and I have heard that this can affect the hip score?

A. Absolutely not! It is only during the birth process where circulating hormones can have a slackening effect on the pubic symphysis (where each half of the pelvis is joined together) and thus alter the angulation of the pelvis and thus the likely hip score. The hormone changes around oestrus have no effect on these bones."







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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:16 pm

ahhhh very clever mrs lane! i didnt see how a season would affect it either but was rather annoyed he didnt ask before he scored her!!!
( she scored 19- i think.... lol)


yep my vet did moan i should have had diasys done before her first litter rather than after..... my hipds were never the same after kids either lmao!

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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:21 pm

Like many, I do believe Our Means score is not a 'true' BMS. Until it is made compulsory that all breeding stock is scored we will never get a true picture, because owners are given the option whether to send them in for scoring or not resulting in only the 'good' ones being read. I have always sent in x-rays regardless of 'how they look' so at least we know what we have to deal with & it also helps the breed Mean Score. Many times i have seen scores from dogs come out much higher, yet these dogs move effortlessly & have won in the ring. I think there is more to a dog than its hipscore, we just have to be mindful if the score is higher.
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:55 pm

DONT get me started lol

i totally agree that the breed mean is as fake as my erm..... hair colour Very Happy

i sat at a show some 2years ish ago to be told by a "breeder" that they didnt agree in hip scorings its a not nessisary risk and they would never put a bernard under..... i note they have a few dogs- more than me, and funny enough have 2 or 3 scored.... seems they believe in it when the score is well below the breed mean!!!???

my view is along the " better the devil you know" view,id rather score and know, if i have a high scored bitch then ill use dexter where possible my lowest scored of the 5 dogs i have at stud.

i also feel if you book your dog in to be scored its the whole thing that has to be done- it must be sent off.

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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:59 pm

LOL ... hair colour pmsl!!!

Then, theres the 'other reason' .... Some wont put a bitch out to be scored, because of the 'problems' associated with anaesthetic ..... but happily put said bitch out for a C-Section?!!! Hmmm
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 5:14 pm

Embarassed
( my hairs purple atm lol)

if a bitch or dog isnt healthy enough to be scored then surely they arent healthy enough to be bred, i think some people may need to update their knowledge if thats the case as a 5 min sedation is all thats needed which as we know has a revertor now days!!!

also if a kennel only scores a few dogs but uses others as breeding stock then i do wonder why

we also heart test all our dogs before we hip score them, if they dont pass then we wouldnt sedate to score- pointless and unsafe to do , esp as we wouldnt breed them anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:26 pm

From my A litter there was a puppy who is unscored but had a wafty hock that she was xrayed for, They xrayed her hips while she was out & as I have seen the xrays myself I can agree they are crap & she has HD. None of my vets have commented about the scores that have come back.. unless they are orthapedic (think thats the right one) I wouldn't trust they would have enough knowledge to pass an opinion, some vets think 20 scoring dogs 'have HD'......

Our gene pool isn't big enough to go on low scores alone unfortunately
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:32 pm

the vet we use is also the man who reads them for the bva, he gives me a score as he does them and has never been wrong bar dexters who he said under ten, it was 7- so not exactly wrong!

but some vets here are very quick to right off a dog even with a below breed mean score.


the only dog ive been surprised at is destinys- 40 - however the fact shes always been allowed to run around 3acres as much as she wants is " your own bloody fault!" according to my vet

you see he would rather id keep them penned up and get better scores! sorry not happening!!! i over exercise my dogs- beacause i cant stand to see dogs doing nothing! my girls and boys are fit and healthy.... some hips show that a tad too much! Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:43 pm

I don't agree exercise does anything tbh, if the hips are bad they're bad if they're good they're good!

Storm, Elouise & Rory Golden grew up at my place in Wales & battered round 30 acres every day twice a day!!
Storms hips are 7, Elouise's 30 something & Rory's are 12. Elouise being a good example of one of those figures that some people would oooh or ahhh at... she is perfectly sound, has excellent movement & is a Champion. Her legs will be the last thing to drop off her!!

In fact if I am very clever I'll see if I can post a video clip of the 3 of them.....


For those that don't know the dogs, Elouise is the more orangey bitch with no spots & Storm is the Saint with the minging muddy undercarriage!!



http://youtu.be/h33-Bhkp4D8
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:03 pm

poor storm. you could have just said the less orange one lol

i dunno , to be fair im happy with the way i keep and raise mine and highly unlikely to change regardless of it possibly affecting there hips,

cheri x
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PostSubject: Re: Hipscores and breeding   Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:08 pm

Lets not forget the term 'FIT FOR FUNCTION' .... !!

Whilst dogs 'technically' with high hipscores may not be able to do 'their job' some would without doubt be able to climb a mountain ... & by the same means, some in the lower area probably couldn't!!

Hipscores are only a small % of what 'we' have to consider!
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