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Doline

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PostSubject: litter sizes   Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:17 pm

I was wondering what other breeders's experiences are regarding litter sizes?

I'm under the impression that some 'lines' do big litters, and other small. Once a bitch is in the 1-5 litter size group, she always tend to have litter in this category, and so does her offspring, or if they are in the 6-14 size, she always produce in this category (and her offspring), though with less pups as they get older.

Is this your experience as well or not?

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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:52 pm



daisy is out of 13 , she has produced a litter of 10 and a litter of 5

dora is out of a litter of 13 she produced one litter of 4 with one pup born dead

dory from the same litter as daisy and dora has been mated to 3 different proven dogs and has had no puppies


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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:38 pm

my 2 stbernard sister were from a litter of 10.
1girl whelping 11
the other girl whelp 12 then 14
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:07 pm

One of my girls came from a litter of 14, subsequently only had 2 pups herself as did her daughter.
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:05 pm

And do you think litte size and mating 'timing' has something to do with each other? e.g was litter sizes bigger if the bitch was mated closer to the end of eastrus (considering a bitch doesn't ovulate at once, but a few eggs every day for 3-5 days)?

Thus: Small litters when bred at the beggining of a season, and bigger litters if matings was done towards the end of the season?
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:26 pm

dora who had 4 puppies was mated twice a day for 8 days
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:28 pm

by the way we started mating dora on day 8 of her season which is when she was standing for the dog she was never made to do it which in some peoples eyes would mean she was ready as she was happy to stand- and the dog willingly did his job for the 8 days on the 9th day the dog walked in the house sniffed dora and went back outside- he had no plans of mating her again- did he know she was over or did he know she was pregnant we will never know!
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:28 pm

I cant say that i saw any difference personally.

We use progesterone testing to find out when to mate the girls, the progesterone rises to a certain level to indicate she has ovulated, then you mate her within 48hrs as the eggs musht have time to 'ripen' so they can be fertilised by the sperm.

According to the books & a very good fertility company i have dealt with over the years, its my understanding a female does ovulate all at once. If she was to ovulate every day for x amount of days, then the progesterone levels would be incorrect & would result in some puppies being born 'before their time'?

A female will deliver puppies exactly 63 days after she has ovulated, not before & not after.

Many of us get confused thinking she will deliver pups 63 days after being mated, this is not the case. A female can ovulate on the Monday, yet not be mated until the Wednesday as the eggs must have 24/36hrs to ripen. She would then deliver her puppies 61 days after she has been mated. If you use the progesterone tests, you can then pinpoint exactly when your girl will deliver her pups.

If females have smaller litters, this is generally either because she has not produced many eggs. The Male determines the sex & the female determines how many will be in a litter. Smile




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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:29 pm

If your progesterone test is done correctly, only 1 mating is really needed, the bitch will have pups exactly 61 days from mating, therefore is 63 days from ovulation.
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:34 pm

we would normally test as you know

but dora and dory have been tested each time and still had no pups so we diceded to let the dog do his thing as and when he was ready - dora also stood well everytime for him as she knew him and likes him- with a nervy bitch i really think that helped huges amounts

both bitches were tested at every mating and missed to proven stud dogs - diesel was unproven BUT dora loves him i do wonder if that helped more than we think - rather than a mating with a dog she didnt know or like
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:40 pm

That has been known to happen!

Sometimes the bitch can have an infection high up, that we cannot see or smell. It is just there.

Again more useless info from my fertility guy - Bearing in mind, sperm have no sense of smell & cannot see. If a bitch has an infection, there will be abnormal cells & alot of them floating around inside, the sperm can be attacking these instead of the ovum, as they do not know the difference. Therefore, whilst Mr Sperm is trying to woo Mrs abnormal cell, the important Mrs Ovum is dying off slowly... resulting in no puppies.

Its always a good idea to cover the girls with a soft tissue antibiotic that is purposely used for uterine infections, rather than a 'general wide spectrum' antibiotic.
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:59 pm

love your "mr sperm" explanation!

all mine were covered by antibiotics and dory had the herpes jab aswell!
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:40 pm

Its a particular antibiotic though cheri, most vets just give a wide spectrum one, which unfortunately isnt always strong enough to kill the bacteria, but this one covers just soft tissue & I think is particularly to kill bacteria in the uterus.
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:43 pm

I'm not the 'pro' on this subject, the facts that I have is that the serum oestrogen concentration during oestrus rapidly decreases and the progesterone (also produced by the ovaries) concentration increases. Luteinizing hormone (LH) serum concentration increases approximately one to two days after the onset of oestrus and this increase initiates ovulation within 24 to 48 hours and the formation of the corpora lutea. Ovulation occurs over a 24 to 96 hour period during which immature ova are released. Primary oocytes require an additional 24 to 48 hours to mature and are then viable for fertilization for an additional 24 hours.

So my understanding is that though ovulation occure 24-48 hours after the LH surge, the actual ova will be release over a period of a couple of days. As they grow/ripen and different speeds.
Furthermore not all the ova may have been fertilized at the same time (some may have been fertilized during subsequent matings, and once they were ripe) the tubo-uterine junction through which the blastocysts will pass to enter the uterus will not open until approximately 10 days following the LH surge. Therefore, although some of the blastocysts (or embroys) may be older than others, all will migrate to the uterus usually between days 12 to 16 and implant in the uterus at the same time usually around day 20.

This is also the reason pregnancy detection (eather by Palpation or blood tests or sonars) cannot be earlier, as the 'link' with the mother is only created around day 20.

Therefore my logic tells me that it might make a difference to rather do an earlier mating then a later one, or better even, every second day to get atleast 2 or 3 matings as ova remain viable for 2 to 3 days, and normal healthy sperm, delivered by natural insemination can live in the reproductive tract for at least 5 to 6 days. Thus successful conception may occur if a bitch is bred from 2 days prior to ovulation to 4 days after ovulation.

Am I making any sense?

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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:49 pm

LOL yes doline, I understand

I cant say though that i have heard about them ovulating over a period of x x days. But once the LH surge occurs then mating is usually a couple of days later. We usually mate over a 48hr period, but only 2 matings. I know people who have done the progesterone test & mated only once & had 2 big litters, so i guess it is trial & error in some cases.

I have mated both at the earlier part of ovulation & at the later stages, (mother & daughters) both only produced 2 pups even though the LH indicated ovulation had occured & she was mated over 6 days....

Sometimes it may just come down to mother nature controlling things for reasons unknown to us at the time.
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:21 pm

True

I think it boils down to: if there's only 2 eggs, there's only 2 eggs. If there's 15, there's 15, but one just need to make sure you 'catch' al 15 then!!!
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:24 pm

LMAO!! Yes very true Doline, then if you do, pray to god shes got 15 teats to feed the little darlings LOL!
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Doline

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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:43 pm

And my biggest worry -finding homes for 15 babys (Plus names !!!)
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:40 am

hehehehehehe love it! pray she got 15 teats!!!! soooo funny!!!
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PostSubject: Re: litter sizes   Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:22 pm

btw

daisys litter of ten was from a dog who was in a litter of 2 just him and his sister

i do know every litter he produced was a decent size from 9 to 14 puppies

cheri
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